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Re: Sports

Postby PKMKII on Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:14 am

Mets lose 4-0 to the Phillies, drop below .500 for the first time this season. :bummer:
"How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, 'This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed'? Instead they say, 'No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.'" - Carl Sagan

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Re: Sports

Postby Roy Hunter on Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:00 am

black bart wrote:
Roy Hunter wrote:Partick Thistle beat Falkirk 2-0 away, win the First Division, and go up to the Premier League next season.

:nefyoobash: :haha: :nefyoobash: :haha: :moon: :moon: :moon:
I can't wait for the Glasgow Derby games next season - you know? The two big names in Glasgow Football? Celtic and Partick Thistle?


To be honest Roy...if we got the lads together (and the lasses)...you know DB, Mad Will, Nef Yoo, yourself, me etc and we made up a squad and gave ourselves a name...say Firth of Fourth Queens or something...we'd probably have a good chance in the Scottish League.
I support Thistle because the first place I lived in Scotland was about a mile from Firhill Stadium. My neighbours all support Kilmarnock, because Kilmarnock is 6 miles up the road. My boss and his boys support Clyde, because they are from Cumbernauld.

That's what football is supposed to be like: you support your local team, good or bad, through promotion or relegation, even if they get bombed out of the Premier League and into the Third Division (that sorted out the real Rangers fans from the poseurs - quite a few people I know ditched the red white and blue scarves when Rangers went down).

That's why I hate hearing about Manchester United's global following, its 'brand', its 'market penetration': it's a football team, it should be for people from Manchester. I don't care if my wee team is a bit shit - it's still my team, because it was the one I started supporting when I lived right next to it.
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Re: Sports

Postby PKMKII on Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:50 pm

Roy Hunter wrote:I support Thistle because the first place I lived in Scotland was about a mile from Firhill Stadium.


I thought it had to do with Thistle being a popular choice for Scots turned off by the Sectarian BS of Celtic and the Rangers.

Roy Hunter wrote:That's why I hate hearing about Manchester United's global following, its 'brand', its 'market penetration': it's a football team, it should be for people from Manchester. I don't care if my wee team is a bit shit - it's still my team, because it was the one I started supporting when I lived right next to it.


I think that's part of the reason I like Man City. That, and if Man U are the Yankees of the Premier League, then that naturally makes Man City the Mets of the Premier League.
"How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, 'This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed'? Instead they say, 'No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.'" - Carl Sagan

"To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection." - Henri Poincaré
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Re: Sports

Postby Roy Hunter on Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:40 pm

PKMKII wrote:
Roy Hunter wrote:I support Thistle because the first place I lived in Scotland was about a mile from Firhill Stadium.


I thought it had to do with Thistle being a popular choice for Scots turned off by the Sectarian BS of Celtic and the Rangers.
Indeed it is, but other choices of non-Old Firm teams are available: Clyde in Cumbernauld; St Mirren in Paisley; St Johnstone in Perth; Dumbarton in... Dumbarton; Kilmarnock; Falkirk; Motherwell; Airdrie, Greenock Morton... The reason I chose Partick Thistle was because they were close to where I lived, and I saw the car stickers and scarves everywhere.

PKMKII wrote:
Roy Hunter wrote:That's why I hate hearing about Manchester United's global following, its 'brand', its 'market penetration': it's a football team, it should be for people from Manchester. I don't care if my wee team is a bit shit - it's still my team, because it was the one I started supporting when I lived right next to it.


I think that's part of the reason I like Man City. That, and if Man U are the Yankees of the Premier League, then that naturally makes Man City the Mets of the Premier League.
There was a time when Man City stood for exactly that localist agenda: forget the big red multi-national, the blues are a local team with supporters who have some integrity. That was one of the things I used to like about Noel Gallacher of Oasis - he was a Blues fan through thick and thin, went to matches, talked passionately about his team's performance.

Then relatively recently (2007ish?) they were bought / invested in by some folks from Abu Dhabi, and Manchester City became a results machine with a sideline in marketing replica shirts and school pencil cases, instead of a football team.

I know that in the USA it is not seen as unusual (if not seen as desirable) that sports franchises up sticks and move, change their names, market themselves as brands etc. That trend is currently under way in British sport, and I for one want to resist it: I like the idea of supporting a local team (even if it does not consist of local players) good or bad. It's a tradition that I like. I don't want choosing a football team to be as arbitrary as choosing a brand of breakfast cereal. It is The Beautiful Game; not a commodity.
"I don't mean to sound bitter, cynical or cruel; but I am, so that's how it comes out." ~ Bill Hicks.
"To argue with a person who has renounced reason is like administering medicine to the dead." ~ Thomas Paine.
"One should not believe everything one reads on the internet." ~ Abraham Lincoln.
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Re: Sports

Postby PKMKII on Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:33 pm

Roy Hunter wrote:Then relatively recently (2007ish?) they were bought / invested in by some folks from Abu Dhabi, and Manchester City became a results machine with a sideline in marketing replica shirts and school pencil cases, instead of a football team.


But to be fair, if you want to win an EPL championship, that's what it takes: some Saudi oil baron or Russian oligarch dumping half their personal fortune into the payroll to lure the top-tier players away from the handful of elite teams.

One area I will staunchly argue that American professional sports leagues are better than the top tier European soccer football leagues, independent from the quality of the sport in question in the abstract, is that we've got systems where there is a real chance for a team to be mediocre, or even downright horrible, in one season and then rise to be champions a few seasons later, or vice versa. We don't constantly have the same 3-4 teams winning championships.

Number of MLB baseball teams who've won a World Series since 2000: 9, with 4 of those teams winning it more than once.
Number of NFL 'Murican football teams that have won a Superbowl since 2000: 9, with 4 of those teams winning it more than once.
Number of NBA basketball team that have won the NBA Finals since 2000: 6, with 4 of those teams winning it more than once (4 is the magic number here)
Number of EPL Soccer football teams that won the championship: 4, with 3 of those teams winning it more than once, and Man U winning it 8 times. The closest top-tier league American sports team to that number is the LA Lakers at 5.

We get this through things that would be anathema to the big European soccer football leagues: draft systems that ensure the worst teams from the previous season get the first rookie picks for next season; profit sharing; and perhaps most shocking of all, payroll caps. Funny aside: after buying the (then New Jersey, now) Brooklyn Nets, Mikhail Prokhorov was quite confused and upset when he discovered that he couldn't just buy his way to a championship like his soccer team-owning fellow Russian Oligarchs did with their teams, because of the payroll caps.

This makes the leagues stronger, because it gives the fandom a real chance to see a championship for their team. I know there's something noble and poetic about the traditions of British teams, but when the reason is just "Well my dad was a Southampton man, and his dad before him was a Southampton man, and his dad before him was a Southampton man, etc.," it's more a family heirloom than anything else if the game they're in is rigged. Whereas in American sports, "there's always next year" is more than just an empty cliche. It also, quite frankly, makes it more interesting; there's more mystery, more drama surrounding who will end up winning, what giant will fall from power this years, as opposed to "Well, it'll probably be Man U. But hey, there's an outside chance it could be Arsenal or Chelsea."

Now, that's not to say it's perfect over here. We've still got the problems of big market teams outspending small market teams, and teams that haven't won in forever despite having big markets (hello, Chicago Cubs and New York Jets). But at least we've got real competition, and not seasons that are a farce for all but 2-4 teams.
"How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, 'This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed'? Instead they say, 'No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.'" - Carl Sagan

"To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection." - Henri Poincaré
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Re: Sports

Postby Roy Hunter on Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:39 am

PKMKII wrote:We get this through things that would be anathema to the big European soccer football leagues: draft systems that ensure the worst teams from the previous season get the first rookie picks for next season; profit sharing; and perhaps most shocking of all, payroll caps.
But... But... But... That's SOCIALISM! That's bad! That's Un-Murkin!

We have a much more 'free market' in player transfer (apart from things like the Bosman Ruling, which is kind of an anti -slavery or -indentured service rule), which is why the big money screws things up so badly. From a business point of view, if you need to pay big money to buy success, you need to borrow it first, then you need to pay it back which means you need to be very confident of your success, of a decent outcome.

So you can effectively buy success in European and British football, but in order to get your money back, you need to make it into the Champions League (for the TV revenue), and hopefully to the last 16 of the Champions League (which is where the big TV money is). That's what is wrong with the business model: it's about TV revenue and replica shirt revenue, not about keeping the fans happy and putting their arses on seats on a Saturday afternoon. I don't really have an answer, other than the model lots of European teams use which is fan ownership and a more co-operative and democratic corporate structure for the teams.

Something that has been discussed in political terms is a cap on campaign contributions, so that individuals or corporations cannot buy undue influence. Maybe we could look at something similar for sports teams? An individual or company can't own more than 20% of a football team, unless the majority of the shares are held by fans or a co-operative. I don't know...

PKMKII wrote: know there's something noble and poetic about the traditions of British teams, but when the reason is just "Well my dad was a Southampton man, and his dad before him was a Southampton man, and his dad before him was a Southampton man, etc.," it's more a family heirloom than anything else if the game they're in is rigged.
I'm not trying to be a Luddite here - I do want to un-rig the game rather than take it back to wooden boots, and a leather ball that could break your neck in a header if it got wet, because that's the way we did it back in the 1930s. The payroll cap sounds like a workable idea, but we don't have anything like a draft system: the transfer windows are full of hushed phone calls, scandal gossip and rumour, misdirection and Machiavellian manipulation. The free market at its best.

There is a hell of a lot of money in the game even now, but I am not sure the money is working hard enough. A lot of agents are getting big percentages for doing next to nothing, and players like Suarez are being paid a fortune to bite people, like a toddler having a tantrum. If you could cap the money, I think we could return the emphasis to performance on the field: it's not about how much you get paid, it's about what you achieve on the pitch.
"I don't mean to sound bitter, cynical or cruel; but I am, so that's how it comes out." ~ Bill Hicks.
"To argue with a person who has renounced reason is like administering medicine to the dead." ~ Thomas Paine.
"One should not believe everything one reads on the internet." ~ Abraham Lincoln.
"If you're making a political point wearing a balaclava, you're a c***. It was true for the IRA and it's true now." ~ daftbeaker.
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Re: Sports

Postby daftbeaker on Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:14 pm

Roy Hunter wrote:There is a hell of a lot of money in the game even now, but I am not sure the money is working hard enough. A lot of agents are getting big percentages for doing next to nothing, and players like Suarez are being paid a fortune to bite people, like a toddler having a tantrum. If you could cap the money, I think we could return the emphasis to performance on the field: it's not about how much you get paid, it's about what you achieve on the pitch.

Either that or some sort of FA tax system. Players get a certain amount of money that is theirs (bar the revenue having their bit). Anything over that PAYE, NI etc are deducted and the FA get half of it which is put into a fund for grassroots football/revamping old pitches/paying referees' expenses etc.

The club owners can still hand over obscene amounts of money to players but lots of it will go to low level school and community pitches and teams.

It'll never be adopted but it's an idea.
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Re: Sports

Postby black bart on Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:01 am

1930's Football?...that was the golden age!
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Re: Sports

Postby PKMKII on Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:04 am

Roy Hunter wrote:So you can effectively buy success in European and British football, but in order to get your money back, you need to make it into the Champions League (for the TV revenue), and hopefully to the last 16 of the Champions League (which is where the big TV money is).


There's the rub: there is no equivalent to the Champions League in any of the U.S. professional sports. The top few NBA teams for the season don't go on to play the top few teams from other South and North American leagues. The NBA Finals is it. Which could be a problem for a European Football league that were to implement an American-style system for drafting and payroll, it would mean its teams that make it to the Champions League would not be as competitive there.

daftbeaker wrote:Either that or some sort of FA tax system. Players get a certain amount of money that is theirs (bar the revenue having their bit). Anything over that PAYE, NI etc are deducted and the FA get half of it which is put into a fund for grassroots football/revamping old pitches/paying referees' expenses etc.

The club owners can still hand over obscene amounts of money to players but lots of it will go to low level school and community pitches and teams.

It'll never be adopted but it's an idea.


MLB has something similar, the luxury tax. Basically, if a team's payroll goes over certain amount (currently $178 million for the year), they start getting hit with a tax for the amount they went over the limit. And every consecutive year that the team goes over the limit, the luxury tax rate goes up. But once they go under the threshold, the rate resets. So it encourages teams to tighten their belts every now and then. (Not surprisingly, the Yankees have paid the most into the luxury tax)
"How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, 'This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed'? Instead they say, 'No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.'" - Carl Sagan

"To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection." - Henri Poincaré
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Re: Sports

Postby PKMKII on Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:43 am

Jason Collins, NBA player, come out of the closet. First active pro player in a major American sport to come out.
"How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, 'This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed'? Instead they say, 'No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.'" - Carl Sagan

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Re: Sports

Postby black bart on Thu May 09, 2013 8:43 am

SIR ALEX FURGUSON IS RETIRING AT THE END OF THE SEASON

The world has tilted on it's own axis!!!!!!!
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Re: Sports

Postby PKMKII on Sat May 11, 2013 2:20 pm

FA Cup: Wigan 1, Man City 0

Man City beat themselves with the fouls, and the red card there at the end.
"How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, 'This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed'? Instead they say, 'No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.'" - Carl Sagan

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Re: Sports

Postby Mad Willyum Bonney on Mon May 13, 2013 5:40 pm

One of the finest hockey clubs on earth has tied their first round playoff series . My ...err
... The Toronto Maple Leafs and the Bruins decide tonight which squad hits the golf links .
Give us a clean game lads !
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Re: Sports

Postby PKMKII on Tue May 14, 2013 12:09 am

Mad Willyum Bonney wrote:One of the finest hockey clubs on earth has tied their first round playoff series . My ...err
... The Toronto Maple Leafs and the Bruins decide tonight which squad hits the golf links .
Give us a clean game lads !


Boston wins, Maple Leafs suck as usual.
"How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, 'This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed'? Instead they say, 'No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.'" - Carl Sagan

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Re: Sports

Postby Mad Willyum Bonney on Tue May 14, 2013 6:21 am

PKMKII wrote:
Mad Willyum Bonney wrote:One of the finest hockey clubs on earth has tied their first round playoff series . My ...err
... The Toronto Maple Leafs and the Bruins decide tonight which squad hits the golf links .
Give us a clean game lads !


Boston wins, Maple Leafs suck as usual.


Ohhhhhhh the horror ! I still can't fucking believe it !
Ouch to my right and only eye !
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