Legal restrictions and Pastafarian Ministers

[lapubell]

As a proud minister, I wanted to get some feedback from other Pastafarians about the legalities surrounding marriages and other legal things that ordained folks can officiate. I live in Portland, OR and am going to call the local county clerk office to see what it will take to legally officiate without being ordained by any other churches.

I don't know if Bobby wants to meet up, but since we are in the same town I thought I should do my part and try to figure out what (if any) help I can provide navigating through the paperwork needed to get the CFSM recognized, at least in OR.

Here's a couple of helpful links:
http://www.themonastery.org/tools/wedding_laws/
according to this, oregon says no minister registration is required, but some of those states look hardcore in terms of requirements.

http://openordination.org/state_faq.php
this site lists out each and every states laws in a nutshell. again, oregon is close to being vague enough that we should be able to marry people with our letters or ordination, but like I said before, i'll post back here tomorrow to let you know how it goes.

may we all be blessed on this holy of holy days. arrrrr.

[lapubell]

I just got off the phone with the county. Not too surprisingly they weren't much help.

I was told that as the officiator of the wedding, it is my responsibility to make sure that the process is legal. I was told that I should probably talk to a lawyer, which would of course be at my own expense.

to not screw over my friends, I'm going to get ordained with the ULC as well, but I want to get more recognition to be a real religion in the eyes of the state and feds.

if anyone has any ideas, let's talk them out. I'm a webdeveloper, and am ready to put in the time, so let's do this! I read somewhere about someone wanting a database to show off all the pastafarians out there. I think I may start on this soon.

[Roy Hunter]

I read somewhere about someone wanting a database to show off all the pastafarians out there.

There is a Google map, I'm sure quite a lot of us are on it. There's a link to it in a thread here somewhere. I would go and look for it, but it's late, and I am lazy as well as tired. Best of luck, though!

[daftbeaker]

I read somewhere about someone wanting a database to show off all the pastafarians out there.

There is a Google map, I'm sure quite a lot of us are on it. There's a link to it in a thread here somewhere. I would go and look for it, but it's late, and I am lazy as well as tired. Best of luck, though!

Yarrr, the thread be here.

[Cap'n Tedward]

Register under ULC, use them to make it all legal, then do whatever you like at the ceremony. Typically the state only asks that you verify the couple consent: "Do you take this man...."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vUT7Cv9MX0

[lapubell]

I actually got my ULC certificate in the mail last week.

I would be interested in getting some more legal advise on what positions/titles people need to hold for a church to be officially recognized. Do we need a council of elders? Deacons? Altar boys? Can we get some people officially appointed by bobby and show our status? Can we start passing around a collection plate and giving the money to charities/science research?

I just want to know what the state wants to see, then we can start working on the more hard core states.

[Cap'n Tedward]

I think every state is different. But in NV, you have to have a 501c3 and an oficial state acknowledgement (not sure how that happens). Then the church can sanction ministers for weddings. I would guess there's a bit of variance from state to state, but once you get, say, NV, NY, and CA, you'll probably have all the bases covered to knock down the rest.

[foxdude0486]

Based on that site and any other site I could find information on including Florida's gov site, as long as I'm considered a regularly ordained minister by Bobby (Waiting on the cert to arrive actually) I should be able to officiate any wedding in Florida.

This is also true of any CotFSM ordained minister that wants to officiate a wedding in the state of Florida, even if you do not live within state. If I am worried about the legality, I can become a notary which is also legally allowed to marry within the state of Florida.

I'm currently working on ideas for a wedding ceremony and seeing one done on youtube from burning man is a great help. :)

I will probably look within my large group of friends for an opportunity in the near future and let everyone here know how it turns out!

[Cap'n Tedward]

Yup, 'bout the same as getting a cert from ULC. Whatever cover the bases.. :)

[Arkaeon]

I'd like to posit a question. Has anyone actually filed Pastafarianism/FSM as a religion in any state/territory of the USA? If so, the recurring insecurity regarding legitimacy is irrelevant. If not, someone could do so and solve the problem indefinitely, or at least as long as they maintain the paperwork. FSM theology is no wackier than any of the so-called major religions. My last marriage was officiated by someone who was Erisian, and I officiated at a wedding as a minister of a church with less than 20 members. The state did not complain about the legitimacy of the wedding in either case (nor did they complain about the necessity of filing appropriate divorce papers, in both cases, tragically).

So what's up with the status of CotFSM?

[Cap'n Tedward]

It's not necessarily a state by state thing. In NV there are state registered religions, but the counties determine if you need to be registered or not. If not, then you can claim any religion you like. But in Vegas, Reno and some others, you must be a certified member of a registered religion. In order to register, CoFSM will need a 501c3 non profit license then go through the NV hoops.

California, I hear, is a lot more liberal. You just register with the county, and most will take whatever church you tell them.

[Arkaeon]

Blah, I forgot about county registrations. Once your religion is filed with the state, individual clergy may have to inform their local/county clerk that they will be performing such ceremonies for weddings to be filed with the clerk's office. Basically, it's a way for the local government to maybe get a few bucks for the filing fee and know who is actually out there doing weddings in the area. If you are going to travel to some 3rd party location to marry people, you may have to inform the local clerk's office ahead of time. Again, because of constitutional rights, they basically can't say no and they can't press you for details of your faith or ceremony unless there is reason to believe it will involve criminal activities. They can make you fill out a form telling them who you are and charge $12 filing fee or whatever for administrative costs.

In Illinois, I once filed an official religion and was recognized for a couple years before we decided that the annual renewal forms were irrelevant to our essentially shamanistic purposes. We had to list 3 officers in the fashion of "president, vice-president, and treasurer" name and address stuff, much like a small corporation. We did not have to disclose or discuss anything of the content of our religion or practices, nor reveal anything about church finances or property. I think it cost under $50 to file the paperwork, and we were as official as any church/religion out there.

Under this religion, I and the treasurer got married at the president's kennel office while he was on his lunch break. The hardest/longest part was just filling in the forms and coming up with some fitting "vows" that referenced The Princess Bride a couple times. I got to be the Man in Black. At one point the kennel owner's sister showed up with a bag of Taco Bell lunch, so she got to attend it catered by accident. The whole thing was really pretty straightforward. Some jurisdictions require a couple witnesses to sign off that they actually saw the proceedings happen.

Shortly thereafter, I officiated the president's own wedding in his sister's back yard. The whole wedding party was geared in SCA-type medieval garb and weapons, so when I got to the part where I asked if anyone in the audience had just cause that the wedding should not happen, I added that they should think carefully because the party was prepared to repel boarders :)

Basically, in the USA, the government has no right to stifle your creativity or vision regarding such matters. All they can do is require you to fill out some forms so they know who is filing the paperwork, then they have to give you all the tax and insurance and inheritance rights due to adult citizens who make a consensual decision on their own merit. I'm back in Illinois again, so if I can help the cause in some way from here, just let me know. I've been titled as a monk, a priest, a pastor, a minister, an "elder" a couple times, and a shaman in various religions or spiritual organizations, some recognized by the state, some not. My totems think that having a "legal" relationship is a nonsensical assertion, given that relationships exist apart from anyone's supposed authority. Does the moon need a paper to allow it to orbit the earth? Do tooth and claw need permission to be sharp? Does the eagle need to register its ability to fly at will? Does the bear need a license to eat salmon? Do the valkyr wait for filing times to sort out the dead? Ha! The self-importance of human political affairs is the laughingstock of the cosmos.

Fear not, for CotFSM may openly recognize the silliness of appealing to the spirit world for worldly authority, but it is no less legitimate than those who pretend that such appeals mean anything after all. The sooner and deeper we penetrate the church-state liaison, the sooner we end it.

[mouse2562]

It's not necessarily a state by state thing. In NV there are state registered religions, but the counties determine if you need to be registered or not. If not, then you can claim any religion you like. But in Vegas, Reno and some others, you must be a certified member of a registered religion. In order to register, CoFSM will need a 501c3 non profit license then go through the NV hoops.

Getting 501c3 status isn't all that difficult, but it costs about $400 and involves choosing directors/officers and such. I'm the secretary for a group that just applied, so I could help with the paperwork if someone else were to do it.

[Cap'n Tedward]

I'm betting it's the registered religion part that will be hard...

[Arkaeon]

The hard part is figuring out if the church is already filed somewhere under Bobby's authority, unless someone wants to actually ask him... after all, he should have copyright controls that need to be obeyed.

If he hasn't filed it, but he is willing to let someone else do it, it could be taken care of in a couple days. It would be polite to offer him first shot at being the Big Shot.

Remember, this is not something you ask the government for permission to do. This is something you inform them you are doing so they know you are doing it. It is a courtesy call. The 1st Amendment puts all control in our hands. Their only prerogative is to make sure we aren't committing tax evasion as the primary motivation.

Once a formal filing is made, you could offer people the chance to be registered members, which would quickly garner thousands of members and remove any doubt in the minds of regulators. You could offer official membership certificates (maybe listing both legal and church name and any titles) for a couple bucks to cover print/post or whatever if you wanted to verify addresses and whatnot.

If the esteemed Mr. Henderson has already filed the church corp anywhere in the USA, then stop worrying, get your minister's certificate, and register your name as officiator with your local county clerk or wherever you're going to do ceremonies. They basically can't say no.