Legal restrictions and Pastafarian Ministers

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Re: Legal restrictions and Pastafarian Ministers

Postby Roy Hunter on Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:02 pm

lapubell wrote:I read somewhere about someone wanting a database to show off all the pastafarians out there.
There is a Google map, I'm sure quite a lot of us are on it. There's a link to it in a thread here somewhere. I would go and look for it, but it's late, and I am lazy as well as tired. Best of luck, though!
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Re: Legal restrictions and Pastafarian Ministers

Postby daftbeaker on Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:13 pm

Roy Hunter wrote:
lapubell wrote:I read somewhere about someone wanting a database to show off all the pastafarians out there.
There is a Google map, I'm sure quite a lot of us are on it. There's a link to it in a thread here somewhere. I would go and look for it, but it's late, and I am lazy as well as tired. Best of luck, though!

Yarrr, the thread be here.
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Re: Legal restrictions and Pastafarian Ministers

Postby Cap'n Tedward on Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:28 pm

Register under ULC, use them to make it all legal, then do whatever you like at the ceremony. Typically the state only asks that you verify the couple consent: "Do you take this man...."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vUT7Cv9MX0
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Re: Legal restrictions and Pastafarian Ministers

Postby Cap'n Tedward on Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:01 pm

I think every state is different. But in NV, you have to have a 501c3 and an oficial state acknowledgement (not sure how that happens). Then the church can sanction ministers for weddings. I would guess there's a bit of variance from state to state, but once you get, say, NV, NY, and CA, you'll probably have all the bases covered to knock down the rest.
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Re: Legal restrictions and Pastafarian Ministers

Postby foxdude0486 on Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:23 pm

Based on that site and any other site I could find information on including Florida's gov site, as long as I'm considered a regularly ordained minister by Bobby (Waiting on the cert to arrive actually) I should be able to officiate any wedding in Florida.

This is also true of any CotFSM ordained minister that wants to officiate a wedding in the state of Florida, even if you do not live within state. If I am worried about the legality, I can become a notary which is also legally allowed to marry within the state of Florida.

I'm currently working on ideas for a wedding ceremony and seeing one done on youtube from burning man is a great help. :)

I will probably look within my large group of friends for an opportunity in the near future and let everyone here know how it turns out!
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Re: Legal restrictions and Pastafarian Ministers

Postby Cap'n Tedward on Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:52 am

Yup, 'bout the same as getting a cert from ULC. Whatever cover the bases.. :)
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Re: Legal restrictions and Pastafarian Ministers

Postby Arkaeon on Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:16 pm

I'd like to posit a question. Has anyone actually filed Pastafarianism/FSM as a religion in any state/territory of the USA? If so, the recurring insecurity regarding legitimacy is irrelevant. If not, someone could do so and solve the problem indefinitely, or at least as long as they maintain the paperwork. FSM theology is no wackier than any of the so-called major religions. My last marriage was officiated by someone who was Erisian, and I officiated at a wedding as a minister of a church with less than 20 members. The state did not complain about the legitimacy of the wedding in either case (nor did they complain about the necessity of filing appropriate divorce papers, in both cases, tragically).

So what's up with the status of CotFSM?
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Re: Legal restrictions and Pastafarian Ministers

Postby Cap'n Tedward on Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:31 pm

It's not necessarily a state by state thing. In NV there are state registered religions, but the counties determine if you need to be registered or not. If not, then you can claim any religion you like. But in Vegas, Reno and some others, you must be a certified member of a registered religion. In order to register, CoFSM will need a 501c3 non profit license then go through the NV hoops.

California, I hear, is a lot more liberal. You just register with the county, and most will take whatever church you tell them.
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Re: Legal restrictions and Pastafarian Ministers

Postby Arkaeon on Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:52 am

Blah, I forgot about county registrations. Once your religion is filed with the state, individual clergy may have to inform their local/county clerk that they will be performing such ceremonies for weddings to be filed with the clerk's office. Basically, it's a way for the local government to maybe get a few bucks for the filing fee and know who is actually out there doing weddings in the area. If you are going to travel to some 3rd party location to marry people, you may have to inform the local clerk's office ahead of time. Again, because of constitutional rights, they basically can't say no and they can't press you for details of your faith or ceremony unless there is reason to believe it will involve criminal activities. They can make you fill out a form telling them who you are and charge $12 filing fee or whatever for administrative costs.

In Illinois, I once filed an official religion and was recognized for a couple years before we decided that the annual renewal forms were irrelevant to our essentially shamanistic purposes. We had to list 3 officers in the fashion of "president, vice-president, and treasurer" name and address stuff, much like a small corporation. We did not have to disclose or discuss anything of the content of our religion or practices, nor reveal anything about church finances or property. I think it cost under $50 to file the paperwork, and we were as official as any church/religion out there.

Under this religion, I and the treasurer got married at the president's kennel office while he was on his lunch break. The hardest/longest part was just filling in the forms and coming up with some fitting "vows" that referenced The Princess Bride a couple times. I got to be the Man in Black. At one point the kennel owner's sister showed up with a bag of Taco Bell lunch, so she got to attend it catered by accident. The whole thing was really pretty straightforward. Some jurisdictions require a couple witnesses to sign off that they actually saw the proceedings happen.

Shortly thereafter, I officiated the president's own wedding in his sister's back yard. The whole wedding party was geared in SCA-type medieval garb and weapons, so when I got to the part where I asked if anyone in the audience had just cause that the wedding should not happen, I added that they should think carefully because the party was prepared to repel boarders :)

Basically, in the USA, the government has no right to stifle your creativity or vision regarding such matters. All they can do is require you to fill out some forms so they know who is filing the paperwork, then they have to give you all the tax and insurance and inheritance rights due to adult citizens who make a consensual decision on their own merit. I'm back in Illinois again, so if I can help the cause in some way from here, just let me know. I've been titled as a monk, a priest, a pastor, a minister, an "elder" a couple times, and a shaman in various religions or spiritual organizations, some recognized by the state, some not. My totems think that having a "legal" relationship is a nonsensical assertion, given that relationships exist apart from anyone's supposed authority. Does the moon need a paper to allow it to orbit the earth? Do tooth and claw need permission to be sharp? Does the eagle need to register its ability to fly at will? Does the bear need a license to eat salmon? Do the valkyr wait for filing times to sort out the dead? Ha! The self-importance of human political affairs is the laughingstock of the cosmos.

Fear not, for CotFSM may openly recognize the silliness of appealing to the spirit world for worldly authority, but it is no less legitimate than those who pretend that such appeals mean anything after all. The sooner and deeper we penetrate the church-state liaison, the sooner we end it.
In case you didn't realize it, I DO have a sense of humor. How about you?
"I will not fear. Fear is the mind-killer... I will face my fear. I will let it pass over and through me, and when it has gone, only I will remain." --The Bene Gesserit
"Time is a spiral. Space is a curve. I know you get dizzy, but try not to lose your nerve." -- Neil Peart
"I'm not in the ship. I am the ship." -- River Tam
"The truth is simple. It's the lies that get complicated." -- me
"No matter where you go, there you are." --Buckaroo Banzai
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Re: Legal restrictions and Pastafarian Ministers

Postby mouse2562 on Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:11 pm

Cap'n Tedward wrote:It's not necessarily a state by state thing. In NV there are state registered religions, but the counties determine if you need to be registered or not. If not, then you can claim any religion you like. But in Vegas, Reno and some others, you must be a certified member of a registered religion. In order to register, CoFSM will need a 501c3 non profit license then go through the NV hoops.


Getting 501c3 status isn't all that difficult, but it costs about $400 and involves choosing directors/officers and such. I'm the secretary for a group that just applied, so I could help with the paperwork if someone else were to do it.
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Re: Legal restrictions and Pastafarian Ministers

Postby Cap'n Tedward on Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:07 am

I'm betting it's the registered religion part that will be hard...
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Re: Legal restrictions and Pastafarian Ministers

Postby Arkaeon on Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:39 am

The hard part is figuring out if the church is already filed somewhere under Bobby's authority, unless someone wants to actually ask him... after all, he should have copyright controls that need to be obeyed.

If he hasn't filed it, but he is willing to let someone else do it, it could be taken care of in a couple days. It would be polite to offer him first shot at being the Big Shot.

Remember, this is not something you ask the government for permission to do. This is something you inform them you are doing so they know you are doing it. It is a courtesy call. The 1st Amendment puts all control in our hands. Their only prerogative is to make sure we aren't committing tax evasion as the primary motivation.

Once a formal filing is made, you could offer people the chance to be registered members, which would quickly garner thousands of members and remove any doubt in the minds of regulators. You could offer official membership certificates (maybe listing both legal and church name and any titles) for a couple bucks to cover print/post or whatever if you wanted to verify addresses and whatnot.

If the esteemed Mr. Henderson has already filed the church corp anywhere in the USA, then stop worrying, get your minister's certificate, and register your name as officiator with your local county clerk or wherever you're going to do ceremonies. They basically can't say no.
In case you didn't realize it, I DO have a sense of humor. How about you?
"I will not fear. Fear is the mind-killer... I will face my fear. I will let it pass over and through me, and when it has gone, only I will remain." --The Bene Gesserit
"Time is a spiral. Space is a curve. I know you get dizzy, but try not to lose your nerve." -- Neil Peart
"I'm not in the ship. I am the ship." -- River Tam
"The truth is simple. It's the lies that get complicated." -- me
"No matter where you go, there you are." --Buckaroo Banzai
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Re: Legal restrictions and Pastafarian Ministers

Postby Cap'n Tedward on Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:33 pm

When I registered in NV last year, they required a "certificate of good standing" from a registered church (ULC). Now, it could be that something like.... ummm.. the first Pasta church of Sacramento, or whatever local branch of the CFSM you have registers with the state, then gives letters to any CSFM minister. this could side step the need for Bobby to do all the registering around the country and still get people ministering where needed.
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Re: Legal restrictions and Pastafarian Ministers

Postby Arkaeon on Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:29 pm

I don't think I was clear. I'm trying to find out if Mr. Henderson has registered the church as a whole in some state somewhere. If he has, then his ministerial certificates alone should hold water all over the country. At that point, each local minister just has to do whatever filing/bookwork they need to do in their own locality, if any, to perform ceremonies or hold meetings/operations in their own area. He doesn't need to file certificates or whatever in each jurisdiction himself.

Since he undoubtably has copyright over the general symbols and whatnot of the church at large, he probably needs to do the overall registration somewhere of his own choosing. He may have done this already. I'm just wondering if anyone knows. If he did that in general, it's like a corporate headquarters being filed in one state, then can do commerce everywhere with various branch organizations under their own devices.

At least that's how I understand the USA law.

So does anyone know if Bobby has filed general papers somewhere in USA? That's the one crucial question.
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Re: Legal restrictions and Pastafarian Ministers

Postby Cap'n Tedward on Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:19 pm

You misunderstand US law.

There is no universal registry of churches.

In california, you can simply state that you are eligible to marry someone and you are... legally.

In NV, the church must be registered with the state and some counties demand a letter of good standing with that church.

Other states are different. Check with yours online.
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